So I have apower that will allow someone to make gadgets. This would be one of the "Batman" powers out there that covers many bases for a single price.
I am having trouble making this a semi-balanced power.
A character should be able to make a certain number of gadgets. Possibly even an unlimited number of them. But how to limit this in such a way to make it fair for others to play along side someone who has this power.
I want the power to be able to simulate almost any other power, but not quite as well. The bat grappling gun is cool and usefull, but not as cool as having the actual grapple shooting power of say Spiderman. A deathray by recurring villain Doctor Stupid should be deadly, and scary, but not like being hit by a Powerblast from Cyclops.
Prep time is one of the big limits I want to build into it. Say 1 day of work per rank in the power. The character can build a gizmo that simulates a single power, that gadget has a power rating equal to the character but no skilled uses or effects, anyone can use said gizmo.
Any help out there or other ideas on how to fix up this power?
Monday, March 16, 2009
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This is really a problem when compared to most other powers. Money is another limiting factor and can be a big one depending on what you are talking about.
ReplyDeleteBut still if I put my points into a flame blast and someone else puts theirs into skills and physical plus equipment it is hard for that to balance out.
A.T
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Cost is an excellent idea.
ReplyDeleteMaybe something like 1 week of work per power rating squared at a cost of $1000 per rank. Which can be reduced to 1 day per rating with an application of $1000 x power rating squared.
So a level 4 gadget would take 16 weeks to make at normal cost of $4k. Where as it could be made in 4 days with a $16k cost.
I may also have the max rank that can be duplicated is power rating minus one. With the rank 0 gadgets being equivalent of things that can be made on the mass market. So a chracter with Rank 4 can make make a gun that duplicates Power Blast 3 (max).
Well that certainly works. The question, at least from my point of view is how is this sort maximum justified.
ReplyDeleteIf I am a Tech and I have have the money what is supposed to stop me from building a nuke?
For me the Rules are supposed to simulate an Environment that makes a certain logical sense. The Rules are the mechanics under the surface but within any game there has to be a consistant technology. If it is not logical and consistant then it is very hard for players to extend it or make use of it because they cannot deduce how things work.
From my point of view the world of SuperHeros is unbalanced. If you look at Characters in isolation you can rank and rate them of course. But when they go into action the situation causes some people to be very effective and others to be less so.
Despite the complete imbalance in their powers there have been sitations where Superman could not deliver the final blow, but Green Arrow could. The world of the supers is so wild that the unpowered human can sometimes do what Superman cannot.
You have the same problem with Magic. Sure you can just make it power like all the others with some new names. Or you can limit it in the normal ways RPGS do but in the comics that is not how it works. Mages frequently have the ability to access far greater powers than they normally use. When done properly even a novice Mage is a very formidable opponent.
So I always find the concept of Balance a very odd one when it comes to SuperHero games.
A.T
(-)
Well, balance in betweeen super A and super B i really am not concerned about. I'm looking at more of how to limit the powers enough to make them fun but not god-like.
ReplyDeleteThis power specifically, if used intelligently, could very well make a single character very very powerful. Look at Dr. Doom, he's got a whole bunch of other powers that are great in a fight but...its his gadgets that really bring him to power. Or even look at one of my favorite kids cartoons...the Incredibles...the villain has a bunch of money and time. So he builds world conquering stuff.
Really what I am trying to do i keep the game from turning into something that everyone who plays takes gadgets out to ma, a bunch of honus points into money and cash and turns around a builds a supersoldier powersuit that no one can beat. Granted there are ways around this but you see what I mean.
Hail!
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that abilities like Gadgetts and Magic work just that way in the comics. Even more so that other types of games I think the people who play SuperHero games have to go into it for the fun.
I know a lot of people always look for the most power they can get. Endless discussions of which Class is the best abound. But in a SuperHero game the players have got to get into the spirit of things when they go to make their Characters.
Which is why I tend to let players in games of this sort that I have run build themselves with enough points to make whoever they wish. All on their own some people will go for the complex but low-powered Batman types and others will want Superman.
The game should be able to allow for both. Ok not Superman full out but at least the feeling of invulnerablity should be possible.
A.T
(-)
I know what you mean there. Sometimes you just can't get a certain player to play nice with the rest of the crew who are making the themed fun characters. Ach...well...that's just gaming.
ReplyDeleteBack to the original discussion-
I think that I may make this a three sided problem: Size vs. cost vs. time
I need to work out how to effectively make a slider bar. If you lower one bar (to reduce the size of a gadget) the cost and time go up, and like wise all the way around. If you want it small and quick the cost is going to sky rocket.
Maybe something like having 3 cups you need to fill from a bowl. The bowl needs to be empty but the three cups do not need to be equally full. (Spilling is not allowed).
Every gadget has 3 points that need to be spent to make it. They can be spent in any combination of the three columns Cost/Size/time. As the columns increase the actual value of that aspect increases almost exponentially. For every simulated rank in a power that the gadget is mimic-ing the gadget has an additional 3 points to spend.
So Bob has gadgets 4, he can make a Powerblast 3 gun. He has to spend 12 points into the three columns of size/time/cost. 2 points makes it rifle sized, he's broke so 2 points into cost, and the other 8 into time. I takes him many months to make the gadget.
How do you think that would work out for a techie? If Bob wanted fast the size or cost would skyrocket. That way Dr. Horrible needs that extra expensive "folnosium powder" to make his Death Cannon work, and be able to make it in a month so that the heroes cannot find his secret base before he is finished.
Hail!
ReplyDeleteThe 3 factor approach is pretty much the best idea I think you will find for this particular problem. I get your idea for a slider sort of set-up. But unless Character Creation is going to be some sort of computerized affair I think you will need something simplier.
The problem is how to define all the different types of objects. You mentioned 'rifle sized' for example. If it is a computer you will need a whole new scale or base reference to start.
Same basic ideas work for Magic of course.
Although when it comes to Dr. Horrible he will most likely have assistants. They have to speed things up for at least a fair amount of items. Same applies to Heros of course once they have established themselves.
Although I have always found that most player groups make sure at least one person has serious money to fund the group. GM's can take away that option but I think that is wrong.
So working my way around to it a bit here but it seems that dealing with outside assistance pretty much has to be considered.
A.T
(-)
Thats a good idea..and thinking about it I really like it. I think I will have to build a more indepth gadgetry section or at least a "building stuff" section.
ReplyDeleteI think that making an artisan, engineer, science skill rolls can each reduce the number of points spent in the time/cost/space columns by 10%, as well as another gadget specific skill roll can do the same, by gadget specific I mean Computers for a computer, a weapons roll for a weapon, a sensors roll for some sort of sensor...and so on. So all told that can reduce the total to be spent by 40%.
Now assistance can be had by other people helping, by another 10% no matter how many help. But others can make the skill checks for you if you do not have the skill. That way the total cap is a 50% reduction for the first one and the second copy of a gadget is only 25% cost if you have everything in the necessary skills.
With all skill rolls, more people can assist the primary for a larger bonus to the roll.